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According to this website: http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Brazil/brazil2.htm , Maria I and Pedro III had a stilborn son, Dom João de Bragança, on 20th October 1762. Should he also be listed? dawn22 19:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
– Results in Google books for "Pedro III" on works published between 1980 and 2012: 647 results; for "Peter III": 478 results
Thank you. Lecen (talk) 00:58, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
when I made these comments it wasn't clear where the RM close line was, the above was still all white
Monarch's first name should be the most common form used in current English works of general reference. Where this cannot be determined, use the conventional anglicized form of the name, as Henry above.
The result of the proposal was Closed with no move. -- PBS (talk) 08:22, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
I have looked at the new arguments afresh and I do not think that they change the assessments that user:Qwyrxian made when closing the debate less than a month ago.
There is a custom at WP:RM that when a debate such as the last one is closed that a period of time is allowed to pass (usually not less than 6 months) before an new RM is opened. If a debate is re-opened so soon after the last one then it is unlikely that the consensus of lack there of will change unless very significant new facts need to be presented. I do not think that in this case this level of new evidence has been presented (a metric of this is there does not seem to be a convergence of opinion between those who expressed an opinion, last time and their opinions now).
Walrasiad I think you are misunderstanding the guidance at WP:NCROY, the guidance is based on the policy statement of "Titles are names or descriptions of the topic that are recognizable to someone familiar with (though not necessarily expert in) the topic". The point is that specialised journals with a small circulation may well use terminology that is not familiar to the general public, but is a short hand for those experts (Wikipedia's talk pages are such an example: full of such jargon eg "RM", "AT", "disruption" etc). English speaking historical experts on a Continental European nation's history will probably be multilingual and use names closer to the primary sources than would be used by the general public. I do not think that one should dismiss from consideration a biography on a king written for the general public because it is not a general tertiary source. Indeed it is those sources that we consider to be the most reliable. However a word of caution, biographies do not have to distinguish their subject from other monarchs with similar names (so they do not have to dab on numeral or country, and for selling books to the general public common sensational name may be used in the book title, eg Bloody Mary instead Mary I or Mary Tudor (a commercial pressure that is not placed on more general histories) -- something that probably does not apply here).
I do agree with those who point out the flaw in the "consistency" and I am not sure why all three articles need to be considered in a multi-move, it is quite possible that one or more of them may be more notable in English sources than the others, and that the styling of the name -- Pedro or Peter -- will vary depending on their prominence. Other examples have been given, but a clear example exists in the naming of the biographies on Swedish kings. We have Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden who was and remains a super-star of early modern European history (as does the Sun King) but we name the biography of his namesake and ancestor Gustav I of Sweden and biographies of other members of the Swedish royal monarchy other titles (see Gustav Adolph of Sweden. Insisting that all articles on Swedish kings Christened Gustav/Gustv be called Gustavus or that the article on Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden be changed for consistency would be contrary to common name -- the central plank of AT (follow source Luke).
As either name would be acceptable, I went an looked at the articles expecting to find in those articles a plethora of cited sources, and I was going to use those to help determine the most appropriate name using the reliable sources in the article (an avenue of approach not considered in the last close). Given the long arguments presented here for one name or the other, the lack of sources for the three articles is stunning,:
I would suggest that before any of these articles are put up for renaming again that some of the energy put into suggesting names for these articles is spent improving the content with reliable English language sources (and foreign sources if the details are not available in English language sources). Providing the sources used in the article are modern ones, their usage ought to carry weight in any future requested moves six months or more down the line. -- PBS (talk) 08:22, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
– [I did not take part in previous RM, closer has encouraged a new RM, original proposer also supports new RM]. Propose per WP SOVEREIGN "Monarch's first name should be the most common form used in current English works of general reference.". Although not overwhelming the trend in results since 1990 is to "Pedro I, II, III of Portugal" from "Peter, I, II, III of Portugal". See Peter I/Pedro I = 14 : 5, Pedro II/Peter II = 11: 8, P3 = 5:0. As someone not involved in WP:NCROY discussions, I find results for Peter I/Pedro I (1320-1367) are particularly surprising since you'd expect "Peter I", as a standard English exonym for medieval kings (from Latin Petrus) and yet sources like The New Cambridge Medieval History: c. 1415-c. 1500 - Page 1033 Christopher Allmand, Rosamond McKitterick - 1998 has "Pedro I of Portugal". I was particularly struck by this source as it shows a deliberate editorial change contrary the old J. B. Bury Cambridge Medieval History 1938, 1959 which had "Peter I of Portugal" ...it is this change in a Cambridge standard work from 1938 to 1988 which makes me confident to support this move. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:56, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
"changing to refimprove is fine (which I've done), but the template has to stay at the top" (user:Qwyrxian) why does it have to stay at the top? and givent that bibliography is confusing why not change the section headings in the appendix to the standard ones? -- PBS (talk) 10:03, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
The first RM was 12 to 4 in favour of the move, the second was 11 to 6 in favour, is it not time for a new RM? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:20, 28 January 2015 (UTC)