I have greatly expanded the template to sort the languages according to subbranch. The criteria for inclusion in the box are (1) an ISO 639-3 code, (2) a living language, and (3) a Wikipedia article specifically about the language. +Angr 13:14, 30 July 2009 (UTC)Reply
#1 should be included as it contradicts sources such as [1]. Sarcelles (talk) 20:17, 28 February 2010 (UTC)Reply
- That map shows as distinct a lot of varieties that are generally acknowledged to be dialects of the same language rather than distinct languages (e.g. Zuidhollands and Utrechts). The allocation of ISO 639-3 codes is not entirely unproblematic, but following it gives us an objective, Wikipedia-external guideline to follow. That helps us avoid original research and maintain a neutral POV. +Angr 20:45, 28 February 2010 (UTC)Reply
- This is not an objective guideline. It has a code for both Low German and Westphalian, although Westphalian belongs to Low German. Sarcelles (talk) 11:46, 1 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
- For that matter, so do Achterhooks, Dreents, East Frisian Low Saxon, Gronings, Sallaans, Stellingwarfs, Tweants, and Veluws, but they all get their own code. As I said, it's not unproblematic, but by following a Wikipedia-external standard, we avoid OR. It's not our job as Wikipedians to decide what is and what isn't a separate language. +Angr 11:52, 1 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
- There are scholarly books, which can be used as sources. Sarcelles (talk) 12:03, 1 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
- Do they all agree with each other as to which varieties are separate languages and which are dialects of the same language? It seems very likely that this is a source of academic discussion, and thus more suited to discussion within the text of the articles rather than in a navbox template. +Angr 13:17, 1 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
I had such debates in several Wikipedias. The present template is a breach of syllogism. Sarcelles (talk) 15:42, 2 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
- Huh? +Angr 15:50, 2 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
- This template has varieties belonging to another variety within the template on the same echelon. Sarcelles (talk) 16:23, 5 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
I have to agree with Angr: it is better to follow ISO. They obviously do make mistakes, like most other sources do, but an ISO code implies a sort of official character, and I think we may hope they do a lot of work to avoid as much as mistakes as possible. I have now removed Brabantian (which has not an ISO code nor is a language). Note that East Frisian Low Saxon is unclassified by Ethnologue within the Low Saxon-Low Franconian languages, and that Riograndenser Hunsrückisch within the Germanic languages. To me, it seems not to be wrong of us to categorise them ourselves, as is done already in the template, so I changed nothing regarding this issue. Greetings, Belgian man (talk) 21:55, 21 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
- The codes seem to be a case of anyone could say that.
Greetings, Sarcelles (talk) 12:10, 22 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Maybe so, but they're an established, neutral, Wikipedia-independent system. Any other attempt to decide what is and is not a language for purposes of this template will either be OR or will be based on some other equally arbitrary and controversial external source. +Angr 12:34, 22 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
http://web.uni-marburg.de/sprache-in-hessen/flash/dt.swf is not as bad. Sarcelles (talk) 13:06, 22 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
- That makes no distinction between language and dialect and only covers German (High and Low). +Angr 13:45, 22 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
- I suggest that clear contradictions to this are removed. Sarcelles (talk) 13:59, 22 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
- Namely? +Angr 14:33, 22 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
- Cologne is covered by Ripuarian (which is wider), the Main-Franconian area is part of the East Franconian area, the Palatinate German area is part of the Rhine Franconian area and East Frisia belongs to the Northern Low Saxon area at
http://web.uni-marburg.de/sprache-in-hessen/flash/dt.swf. Furthermore, Austro-Bavarian is not on the same echelon as Swabian there. Sarcelles (talk) 17:14, 23 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
- But it does put the wider Ripuarian, East Franconia, Rhine Franconian, and Northern Low Saxon groups on the same echelon as the narrower Lower Alemannic, Central Alemannic, Swabian, Higher Alemannic, and Highest Alemannic; or the narrower North Bavarian, Central Bavarian, and South Bavarian. Following that map would actually add too many dialects of larger languages to the template, not to mention that it doesn't even consider the remaining Germanic languages. +Angr 18:01, 23 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Indeed; that map seems to be a dialect map rather than a language map. Belgian man (talk) 09:33, 24 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
- The template is not to include every dialect, so the Dutch Low Saxon varieties should be replaced with those at
http://taal.phileon.nl/kaart/daan.php or removed. Sarcelles (talk) 18:03, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
http://taal.phileon.nl/kaart/daan.phpReply
Not if we want to follow ISO. Belgian man (talk) 15:58, 30 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
- This is a case, where an exception would make sense. Sarcelles (talk) 15:29, 31 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Scandinavian languages are quite detailed in the template now. Hence I suggest to use the -scholarly founded- dialects in http://web.archive.org/web/20050405233410/http://www.uni-marburg.de/sprache-in-hessen/sprachlandschaften_dt.html. If there are no objections, I will change to the dialects of the mentioned map. Sarcelles (talk) 09:43, 29 October 2015 (UTC)Reply
As I read in ruwiki, Yiddish belongs to Central german dialects group inside High german lang-s; it doesn't compose distinct lang-s group. --Ерден Карсыбеков (talk) 18:52, 10 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Language groups/distribution
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