we need to restrain the scope of this template. It is questionable to extend it to the modern period. Perhaps it should only cover the time up to AD 1000 or so, including the Viking Age and the formation of the Holy Roman Empire. After that time, it becomes misleading to talk of "Germanic peoples" as a unity, because they had split up into clearly distinct nations and linguistic communities. dab (𒁳) 09:45, 7 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
A good cut-off point is conversion to Christianity, as this goes with substantial Romanization, though that would eliminate AS England and other barbarian kingdoms. Otherwise, decide cut off points for the three regions — Germany, England and Scandiinavia — individually, while taking natural points for the Germanic kingdoms (i.e. their ends). Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 11:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)Reply- I don't really agree on Christanization being a good "cut-off point". That would be 4th century for the Goths but 11th century for the Scandinavians. The Goths from the 4th, and the Anglo-Saxons from the 6th to 11th century weren't any less "Germanic" because they were Christian. I suppose the 11th century is reasonable. The "cut-off" isn't sudden, of course, but consists of the various shifts that characterize the High Middle Ages. Say 962 on the Continent (Otto I), 1015 in Scandinavia (Saint Olaf), and 1066 in England (William I). dab (𒁳) 12:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)ReplyTo me the first part sounds reasonable! If we're to talk of Germanic peoples as having any unity beyond the happenstance fact that their languages have been grouped in one linguistic classification, lack of Christianization/Romanization gets you somewhere there, because you can still detect beforehand other common features, brought together under that wonderful umbrella term "religion". Anyone who studies "Germanic culture" today will look at Icelandic sagas from the 13th century [written about the 10th/11th], because the fact that Scandinavia held out against Christianity so long preserved aspects of Germanic culture that died or became invisible elsewhere. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 12:15, 7 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
- their cultural "unity" did not consist in their religion, but in their hierarchical organisation into tribes led by a warlord or king. The "Germanic laws" post-date Christianization and clearly distinguish between a Theodisca and a Welsh population. The fading of this distinction is what really shows the transition from migration period "tribal" to medieval "feudal" societal structure (the HRE had estates, not "Germanic" vs. "Welsh" castes). The distinction does of course persist into modern times (Englishry in the 11th to 14th c. was sort of an inverse discrimination of English vs. Norman), which is why it isn't nonsensical to talk of "Germanic Europe". dab (𒁳) 12:21, 7 April 2008 (UTC)ReplyYou'll find all sorts of cultural or organizational continuities between 1st cent. and 21st, but you're looking for some kind of conceptual cut-off. Christianization/Romanization is really the broadest, though of course it's a process rather than an event, of which the nomoinal "conversion" of the ruler is a nice starting point. So for polities, a good practice might be to only include polities that begin pagan, e.g. the AS kingdoms, Goths, Franks, etc, but not the HRE. Tribal to "feudal" is a general anthropological change rather than anything particularly Germanic, e.g. note the title of Katharine Simms work about late medieval Ireland "From kings to warlords"; happens in all regions, including for European regions Slavic lands such as Poland and Rus as well as Celtic lands like Ireland and Scotland. By definition, the precursor to "feudal" (for all its wooliness) is only ever Germanic when the language of those peoples is Germanic, which is circular. As for Englishries, etc, it's natural for conquering peoples to distinguish conquered by ethnicity ... you'll find it everywhere in the world, from Mongols and Turks, Turks and Arabs, Greeks and Copts, Romans and Gauls to English and Welsh. I don't see anything particularly "Germanic" here. All the best, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 12:46, 7 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
Look, Christianization may be a useful cutoff for "Migration period", but not for "Germanic peoples". I am happy to stick with the HMA as a de facto limit of the application of the term "Germanic peoples", but we can also consider extending this down to Germanic Europe. I am not saying tribal society is something particularly "Germanic". Come on. What do you mean "you'll find it everywhere in the world"? That's the entire point. We are trying to figure out for how long there was any "ethnic identity" in the Germanic case, not in the Mongol or Turkic case, wth?? I am saying that in the Germanic case, the term "Germanic" is falling out of use as tribal society transforms into feudal society. The fact that Turks and Arabs can also have feudal or tribal societies has nothing to do with this observation. The term "Germanic peoples" is only ever applied to Germanic-speaking peoples, that's not the problem. The problem is that there are Germanic-speaking peoples which are not usually counted as "Germanic peoples". The reason for this is ethnogenesis. The Germans are not "a Germanic people", they are a Germanic-speaking ethnicity that formed out of several Germanic peoples during, say, the 15th to 19th centuries. dab (𒁳) 13:02, 7 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
Sorry, no-one ever used the term "Germanic" until a couple of centuries ago. It's a neologism. If you are using "Germanic" to refer to another word, fair enough, but I don't know what word you're thinking of. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 13:17, 7 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
It does not really matter if the very concept "Germanic" is a neologism. For Wikipedia purposes, it is sufficient that the concept exists in contemporary literature.--Berig (talk) 16:21, 7 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
It's important for the particular point being discussed here. ;) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:23, 7 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
- Well, I think you can argue that there was a concept "Germanic" among the Germanic tribes. It would have corresponded to those who could call themselves þeudiskōz and could not be labelled finnōz or walhiskōz. But, that is just what seems reasonable to me.--Berig (talk) 17:03, 7 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
the question is, what scope does the term "Germanic peoples" have in contemporary literature. It turns out that this is related (not identical, but related) to the currency of the historical term of theodiscus and cognates (as Berig has just pointed out). I'll state again that the (contemporary!) term of "Germanic peoples" can be used sensibly from about 500 BC to about AD 1000. There is no clear cut-off of course, but that's roughly the scope this template should envisage. dab (𒁳) 09:54, 8 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
Re Dbachmann, Germanic is a neologism. Why is "theodiscus" Germanic rather than German? It's obviously Theodiscus, but I think the historical developments are better understood translating it as "German". In fact, if you look into it, it's not romantic wishiwashiness to state that that identity continued from the ancient period until the present, primarily because Germaness is clearly distinguishable from neighbouring ethnicities, Slavic and Celto-Roman. Scandinivians are later distinguished by paganism (why "Saxons" are Scandinivians until they are converted) and English by being in Britain, the "Dutch" are still Germans into the 18th century and Austrians only ceased being Germans 60 years ago. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:02, 8 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
- DoP, this conversation is moving towards the surreal. We have long established that "Germanic" is a neologism. You do not seem to be referring to anything I was saying. Your statement surrounding "Germanness" seems completely confused. You may want to read our Germans and Theodiscus articles for background. Sorry if I am missing the point here, but your statement does not appear to make any sense with relation to the discussion of this template. dab (𒁳) 16:31, 8 April 2008 (UTC)ReplyLol ... don't point me to dodgy wiki articles. The day I use those to form opinions is the day I put my neck in a rope. I have trouble following your own points myself, Dab. Not really sure what general point you're trying to construct, but nevertheless because I respect you am replying to you ad hoc. But lemme clear my perspective up for you. You're saying "Germanicness" existed until the High Middle Ages as a contemporary identity and thus topics until that point are valid in this template, yes? I'm saying you haven't made it clear how this is so. Lemme be clear, I think this is confused nonsense, but am willing to listen. But look, being a neologism is friggin important. If the real difference between "German" and "Germanic" did not come about until the 20th cent., then it is nonsense to use this as the basis of historical argument. Using terminology alone, there is terminological continuity (for whatever reason) between Tacitus and today, and usage changed only gradually. What's special about the High Middle Ages? Now if that's not the point you're making, and this is just a distraction from your central Feudalism argument, then I apologize, but then I'm no further towards understanding what a valid cut-off point would be. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:45, 8 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
- I am not asking you to take the content of Wikipedia articles at face value, I am asking you to make a bona fide effort to grok a topic before arguing about it. dab (𒁳) 16:57, 8 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
Listen dab, I'm just as capable as you of making my arguments consist of nothing but patronising recommendations, but that couldn't really be described as bone fide. Are you gonna respond to me properly or not? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:08, 8 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
- I have no interest in patronising you. I was saying that you do not make sense. I would be ever so glad if you could make a coherent statement. I have frankly no idea what you are trying to say, and I cannot be bothered to second-guess, sorry. dab (𒁳) 07:10, 9 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
I've had enough of this dab. This attitude is irritating and childish. If you honestly don't follow what I've said, you're capable of asking me to clarify. You're perfectly capable of understanding what I said above, and frankly I think you're just full of it. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:26, 9 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
What about having an end date with the conversion to Catholicism? This conversion had deep changes in societal structure, such as the fact that the king lost his priestly role, and the demotion of the priestesses into witches. Moreover, through the "Catholicisation" the Germanic peoples became part of a pan-European culture and power structure.--Berig (talk) 14:17, 10 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
This is what I suggested above, though I used "Romanization" rather than Catholicisation. :) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)ReplyEarly time bound for inclusion
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